What we never said

0:00 Hi, welcome back to our podcast. And we left off last time talking about strict versus freedom. We were talking about people that in situations that affected us, we were not putting light on who they are as people or what they've been through. And I want to make that very clear. We're sharing our experience, how we were affected, like I said. So I was killing actually, because we talked and we always talk, but anybody who knows us, it's like game over when we're together. But yeah, I. Love. I know my I was explaining to killing.

0:40 I'm like, we can't explain this without that, and we can't explain that without this. So we can't explain 16 year old version and not go back to six or vice versa. There's just so much how everything was kind of like a roundabout. So everything that was happening, it was all like a roundabout, right? So my point is I kind of got sidetracked there. But my point is when I was sharing like a certain situation, it wasn't to shine a light on somebody else. And as we like share our experiences moving forward, it's not to put a spotlight on anybody else, anybody else's life, who they are as people, anything like that.

1:18 We're simply sharing from our perspective, right? So and how it affected us and it is the truth and it's our truth. And everything that's being shared isn't an attack towards anyone at all. And nobody, anybody who's listening to this podcast, honestly, you're not even going to know who we're talking about because we're not putting like specifics for a reason. Because first of all, we don't feel like revengeful or hateful towards anybody. That's why we're doing this because we've gone gotten to such a place of like gratitude and being thankful for the life that we had.

1:58 So with that, with what we've been sharing, definitely in the last episode, we, I feel like going in depth with some of the things that were happening like manipulation and the intensity of abuse that we're going to talk about in the future and the intensity of addictions and all of that. We can't really get to where we're wanting to get on the podcast without sharing situations that we went through because that's what made us who we are today. And what that being said to before we move forward and before I let Kayleen finally talk is another thing I want to be clear about is as we're sharing these stories, we're also very aware and Killeen, we've talked about this so much.

2:41 So I know we're on the same page about it. So with that all with everything that I'm saying right now and like starting this episode, the people I want to be clear too because as we're sharing these things and we're going to share a lot about ourselves in the future as well. You my perspective is and simply like I said, this is my perspective. Anyone that's gone through similar things that we share on this podcast might feel the same way or have experienced the same thing. But when, when you go through 24 years of chaos, abuse, trauma, you don't leave that and not have some side effects or characteristics.

3:23 So we've also had to work 10 times harder to dig out literally everything. It's like taking a spoon and like digging this giant grave of like everything that you learned with a tiny, tiny like tablespoon and trying to navigate and dig that hole and figure out, OK, that doesn't belong there. This doesn't belong there. That's not who I want to be. That's not even who I am. I'm only reacting that way because it's all I know. Things like that. So I just really wanted to explain that before moving forward because with the things that we are sharing and talking about, it's we have so much understanding now.

4:07 And some things I've said through my healing as well as like I have had a moment. It was like 1 super intense moment. I was like driving my car and I put myself in one of our parents shoes and I looked in the rearview mirror and I pretended like I had three kids sitting in the back seat. I had all this childhood trauma, don't have a relationship with any of my family, All of this stuff, XY and Z, trying to battle my own addictions, whatever it may be. And I wanted to, I literally like sat there in silence in my car and was like, I want to try the best I can to put myself in their shoes so I can understand them.

4:49 So with what we're sharing, this isn't about they did this, they did this, they're this way because this we're this way. No, none of that is factual. None of that is the base of what we're doing. It's simply to express our journeys and how we got to where we are. So I know I kind of just went in a little rampage there. I just really wanted to dive into that for a second because anyone who listens to this, you could be on the other end of it too. Where? I basically got court ordered to move back into the stricter household so that I feel like just it being more of a court ordered thing and then, you know, I would lock myself in the room.

5:35 I was, it was just, it was really, really new to me and I just, I don't know, I, I felt so out of place. I was missing basically my best friend. And then, you know, I just felt really, really out of place. And then tired thing. Little did I know, like I, I'm not when I say I locked myself in my bedroom, I literally barely came out. And so I feel like that kind of put a damper on where our relationship could have started like you and you and I, Adrian. And so I feel like I'm kind of part of the reason why then we didn't really wasn't really able to start having, you know, a relationship like we could have let.

6:26 Me interrupt you at some point? Yeah, I got. No, Yeah, yeah. OK. OK.

6:33 So OK. Well, I can ask you since stopping there just to see how like you, you viewed it whenever I moved in, looking in on it from the other side like how was it for you like? OK, this is so funny. Whenever I moved in. So whoever's listening, I just want you to know that me and Kayleen can sit on FaceTime from the time we wake up to the time we go to bed, fall asleep on FaceTime together, do life together, go grocery shopping together over FaceTime, all these things. And we still do not run out of things to talk about.

7:10 And this is a question that you've never asked me. So I'm like, oh, wow. I feel like we talked about everything. And it's like, no, we haven't. So I just think it's funny. So whoever is listening, you guys are kind of, you're getting the insight of our face times. Obviously they're not all like this, like, obviously, you know, but yeah, yeah. So there's so much that was going through my mind as you were sharing like so, so much because I can see your perspective of what you're explaining. So me and Kayleen to everyone who's listening.

7:44 Me and Kayleen, when we lived together and we moved around together and all of these things, right? And then when someone got custody of us, we went together, but we were not doing life together. It's like when so much is happening like that, I don't even think we could like be present with each other with ourselves. So we weren't we weren't even kids, you know. So when that specific situation happened, I remember there was that little heater in the house because you know how guys, people struggle.

8:15 And I'm not even just saying like if your parents and if you're listening to this, if you are looking at other people's situations and they have a big house or AC throughout the whole house, that stuff doesn't matter. And I just want to be very clear before I finish sharing what I'm sharing because that's not what I'm pointing out in the scenario. I have so much gratitude and so much thankfulness for my parents for doing what they could. And the fact that there was a heater in the living room and stuff like that.

8:49 I just, I don't know why I felt the need to say that. But since I said the heater, I was like, OK, well, I want to be very clear because the rest of the house didn't have heat and everything like that. We always had like the one room that had AC. And I'm so glad that we grew up the way we did, honestly, because I feel like it just gave such, I don't know, I gave. I'm so grateful, you know, so. I feel like we're, we have very adaptive personalities. I feel like we move into an A home with no heat.

9:22 It it's fine. I, I, I, I mean, obviously, you know, but I just feel like we're, we're really good at adapting. And not even that, but I feel like now that we're adults and we've had our own struggles, we can look back at like not even just that situation, just other things and be like, Oh my gosh, I that it is hard to get through that it's and killing you specifically. Wow. It is hard to manage this and have kids and whole family and try to do life, school, bills, all of the these things. It gives you a different perspective.

9:55 And so when you look back, it's like, should things have been differently? Absolutely. But at the same time, there's also, it's like joy and grief. I've been saying this a lot recently. It's like this battle of joy and grief because now you're an adult, but you're also grieving, you know, at the same time. Got sidetracked there. My point is, I remember I was sitting by that little heater in the living room, and I remember when you got brought back to the house. And a part of me, how do I say this, because I don't even know exactly how I'm thinking it.

10:28 So I was happy with her Keeling because even though like through all the states, all the moves, everything, I feel like we were always surrounded by people. It still felt so lonely because there was no sense of belonging or home. We're meeting all these people, but they have pictures on their walls. They have a consistent Thanksgiving. And it's not even just about the holidays. It's the concept of they know where they belong. I feel like I've spent a lot of the majority of my holidays, where am I going this year?

11:05 What am I doing? And sometimes I'm just like, I just want to be alone. So when Kaylene came back to the house that day, I remember, I mean, that's my sister, you know, even if we weren't close at that time, you know, our relationship didn't build until like our mid 20s. I. Thought of you is excited, you know, like my sister. But I will say, I saw what it did to you. It is very, very hard and I don't even think we can explain it into detail enough. The extreme, the extreme that stem the extreme of going from that immense amount of freedom in which I agree with you, too much freedom is very is actually not good.

11:49 People need structure. They need and I'm not saying getting complacent. I'm I'm saying just like structure, not getting complacent and moving forward and not growing. I'm saying just genuine structure. And I felt like we never had that. So when you came back, I felt somewhat structure with the one parent because they didn't move around as much. So it brought a different kind of but with a different battle. So right. But I I saw how much you were dealing with and things started getting so bad so fast with what was happening in that house with me.

12:27 I felt like, you know, it was really good at 1st and then like abruptly terrible. So I want to say two things killing because I'm going to ask you a question. First I want to say whoever is listening to this, if you have a mixed family, if you're younger, if you're older, if you're someone that is married to someone and you guys are engaging in a mixed family, it is very, very difficult definitely if the kids are older to try to merge that those two lifestyles together. And I think it put. Like having a step parent and.

13:02 Not that it's a bad thing, but it takes a lot of patience, understanding, talking, communication, all the things. Cuz when you're taking two, and mind you ours was, it wasn't just a normal situation. You're taking this extreme situation of what we've already dealt with prior, trying to bring it into a situation where they had had a little bit more stability. So it's kind of like we looked like a whirlwind. I felt like coming into that situation, it's like we are just like coming in at 100. Not that we were bad because I obviously we were kids to whoever's listening.

13:42 Obviously we were kids. We did stuff like, you know, whatever. But do I feel like we were out there, you know, stealing, fighting, all that? No, with the circumstances, a lot of people I feel like could go that way. A lot of people couldn't. And we didn't go that route. We weren't fighters. I, I, you weren't killing. It just wasn't one of those things where you know. Yeah, like of trying trying to avoid conflict. Yeah, I do want to mention, I guess I don't know like hang on, hang on. I I guess I will share also, I can't remember the exact age.

14:26 I remember I had chose where I wanted to stay around 1314 and then when I got court ordered it had been a couple years after that. So I may have been 15-16 ish maybe. So yeah, I'm like I. Don't know. Or maybe it had this? Year I was you were you were gone for a while, but that's why I want to ask. So. Guys, this is the logistics part of it where as you're listening, you're also we're navigating too because with so much that happened, we don't know exact timeline. And honestly, I think some things are kind of unanswered questions and it's like, it is what it is.

15:08 But Kaylene, that's why I wanted to ask you, do you feel like a child that is under 16 even should be able to make a decision that intense when in regards to court and decide where they want to live?

15:33 I think that's going to be a hard, honestly, I feel like that's going to be a hard question for. You to answer because of the circumstances. Well, I think yes, because at the time I made that decision, everything was going very, very, I can say this, I can say at the time I made that decision, we were in a very good place. We had a nice apartment, everything was going good. Things kind of slowly started going downhill, downhill. And I feel like there's kind of a reason why I got court ordered to move back in under certain circumstances.

16:17 Yes, I do feel as though the child should be able to choose where they want to live because. Oh no, I just said OK, sorry. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. So I do feel as though that that I do think depending on the age and the circumstances, yes, I do think that they should be able to make those choices because, you know, basically, I'm not going to really speak on like the court ordered part of things or why I had got court ordered to move back into the stricter household, so to speak. But basically I was hanging out with the wrong crowd.

16:54 The household that I was living in was a bit chaotic. So like I said, there was a reason why I had got court ordered to move back in. But also whenever I had got court ordered to move back in, it wasn't very long until I had turned 17, until I had turned 17 and I was able to make the decision to move back out because anyways, So what basically what I'm trying to say is going from a household where and when I say whenever I was saying freedom it I was doing a lot of different things, experiment and what different things hanging around the wrong people.

17:40 So I did have, I would say some like I was smoking and stuff like that. So I was definitely coming, I was coming from a place where, you know, I was doing a lot more heaviness and then, you know, going to a place where I would get, I literally got my phone took for texting my boyfriend or something like that. So I literally went from, you know, going over to and just smoking and hanging out to go into a household where you know, so you going to a household where like you asked, I still got ground right?

18:27 You like ask permission and 90% of the time it snow. So it was definitely difficult to go from those two different environments. Yeah, Kayleen, so that was you were also coping with a lot too. So I think with everything giving, given everything that was going on at the same time, like and what you're exposed to at the same time, it can really take a toll on a person honestly, with the whole when you got brought back to the strict household, I was in the strict household so. Right. It was. I can't even explain the intensity of the two.

19:16 I was not happy. I tried to. I will say this, whenever I got court ordered to move back in there, I didn't make it easy for anybody in the house for reasons that I kind of just spoke about without speaking about. And also, like I said, I felt like I was losing. I felt like I was losing my best friend at that time, you know? You were meant like, you know, misunderstood a lot through that I will say, right? And. I I think I got angry with a lot of things. I feel like I was, I was pretty angry for a long time with just everything.

19:55 But at the same time, Wow, Kayleen, that's like the first time I've heard you say that. So that I think I just had like a moment of like, holy crap. Yeah, I was. I know I was trying to like, because, you know, I was just living in a household I was hanging around with. Yeah. I was like young. I was very influenced out just by, you know, peers and friends and stuff. So and also, you know, somebody that was living in that household, which I've never really spoke about this either. A lot of a lot of confusion is that the parent I was being I was with had had had something to do with what I was going on with me, but it was the person that we were living with.

20:50 His girlfriend is one of the people that had influenced me to try some things, some I don't know if I'm allowed to say illegal, illegal things and so at that. Time you're you're young I mean that's young when I. See kids the age that we were. In some of these scenarios, like that is young and honestly, I had personally, I had resentment as I got older towards people because it's like, you know, the type of person someone is, you know what's going on, you know, XY and Z, why is nothing happening?

21:33 And then it's like, but then you have so much going on in this household. If you want to even express anything about before you cannot take that is like getting into a relationship with somebody that is, you know, 21, however many years old and expect them to basically talk new from day one. Talk new, walk new, think, think new, not ever talk about a single thing from their past and what the good or bad. You cannot expect someone So moving children into a home that already have experienced an immense, immense amount of life and expecting it to be don't ever speak about that.

22:17 Don't ever bring that up. Don't have feelings about that immediately. Right, but. You have no expression in yourself.

22:27 I guess I would say more that I felt trapped, like I felt trapped inside my own like world. Like I I felt like I couldn't go anywhere. I couldn't do anything. I was taken to and from work. I was expected to be outside in the car at a certain time. Like it didn't matter. Even at my job like that they were taking me to, I was expected to be in that vehicle at at the time that I, I was supposed to be off and working. It's, I mean side work, stuff like that. You don't really know. Sometimes it might go 10 minutes over and it's like, OK, well then you'll need to find a new job.

23:11 I'm like, any job is like that. So I basically went from walking to school working. I was working at Steak and Shake at the time. I was waitressing. I was working third shift. I was driving to having, which I don't know if I should have been driving, but I was, I would take anybody's, I would take anybody's car that was in the parking lot and just like, or in the driveway. Oh, I was like, I'll be asking everybody like, well, yeah, like. Everybody in. My, I'm like, well, I'm like, everybody's just passed out.

23:48 I'm like, hey, can I take your car? I got to get to work. Hey, like, I'm a lot tired. And I'm like, by the time I even got back, they were still like asleep. So I'm like, whatever. Which I mean, they like they normally had said yes. So I was never like reported. Yeah. I was like the comfortability thing. And so, yeah. So then and then I go into a household where it's basically like, you know, that I was getting threatened to have what is the what is the juvenile people? They were constantly being.

24:26 I was constantly because since I was court ordered to live there, I was constantly being threatened to oh. If you didn't like, be. Called on listen to like if I didn't abide by the rule right then I would be like threatened to be called on like, oh, we'll just call. I can't remember the people like the juvenile like. Killing places. Or whatever. I think it's so powerful everything that you've shared in the past, like just this past whole moment, because people can look into the situation and if somebody's look like just taking it from their perspective or another person's word, they can look into your situation and be like that child does not listen.

25:12 That child is crazy. That child is this and have this whole audience of people that's like, Oh my gosh, like that child is off the hook. But if people sat and. Listened. If people sat and listened to other people, what you just shared explains why. It's why everything was happening the way it was happening. Like you weren't just off the hook, you weren't just a crazy child. You weren't just waking out, whatever. You just humbly admitted not just things that were happening around you, things that you personally, you didn't go into detail, obviously things that you personally were struggling with.

25:54 If people could sit and listen and mind you at the same time, you're still a kid. You don't even know your own emotions and you didn't grow up in a house where you can go home. There was nowhere for you to go to find comfort. Now, did you live with a certain person that gave you that sense of best friend and partnership? Not partnership, but like if you do life with someone, whether it's a best friend, a dog, whatever, it's like a partnership. You're doing life together. You're paying rent together, even if it's a friend, you know what I'm saying?

26:25 It doesn't have to be a spouse, but you're doing life with someone. But that still wasn't a comfort place for you, because that's the place where you found some of your darkest moments too good and dark I. Didn't feel welcomed like I, yeah, it was, it was a whole new environment. I felt like I was just treated like, like just basically somebody that could be, I don't want to say controlled in a sense, but it was just too much. So I wasn't there very long before. Yeah, I wasn't there very long. And finally one night there was an argument that had broke out.

27:08 And so I was asked to leave and I immediately packed my bags. I called everybody, my phone. There was only one person which that had picked up and came and got me, which that's a whole nother story on that because that started on whole nother journey of things. So yeah, I wasn't very long. And so I, I felt bad honestly. Now looking back on it, I didn't ever really you were put in the middle of during that time. Like I, because I feel bad for you during that time because you were there and I remember seeing your face when when they would call the police officers over and they were like, Hey, you know, you've seen it.

27:53 And you would just stand there with a blank face, like not knowing what to do because like you were, you were put in some tough situations as well. Oh, sorry, you were, you were put in some tough situations as well and kind of was put in the middle of, I would say like me being your sister. And then as one of the parents that we had, you know, you were basically put in the middle as though you were supposed to take one of our sides and you didn't know what was going on. I mean, you were a kid, so and I had seen another side of things and you had already experienced and you had already experienced so much there.

28:39 So it's like you was not about to say a word. And now, now all these years later, I can look back and see why. But in my head I was like, I don't understand why you're not speaking. I don't understand why you're not saying anything. I was like, you just seen everything that happened. Just tell, tell them. And you blank face just like, well then you didn't say a word then. Screaming at me and I'm like. Not saying anything at all. So I'm like, I can only imagine if you had actually like said something.

29:14 So like, I don't know, I feel like you, I looking back on that situation, I can definitely see where you had already been affected in that household because I could see it on your face, you, which I didn't know at that time, but I had no idea at that time that you had been going through that until years later we start talking about everything. I'm like looking back on certain things. I'm like, that makes so much sense as to why I thought I was just being treated differently. But no, like, you know, I, I think it was me and me and you basically as a whole.

29:58 I truly feel that way. I am, I know, like there's a lot more siblings involved, which we're not going to get into them, but I feel like outside of anything you and I were treated, that's really how I feel. I feel like you Oh, I don't want to keep speaking for you though. Like. I've done it too like this whole. Time I know I'm I know, but that I'm saying how I feel like from outsider looking in and looking back then on how I feel or how I felt looking back on that situation and knowing everything.

30:36 I know I was going to ask you though, like because I don't want to speak for you, but that is completely, you know, I don't know. As as kids, I feel like you feel a certain way when you're in the situation and then you become an adult and you can see it from a kids point of view, being in the situation. And then you can also see it from the adult version of you looking back. And you can really like judge like, or you can really like, yeah, judge the situation and like, OK, OK. I wasn't, I wasn't crazy.

31:12 I, this wasn't just me, you know, thinking that I was this awful kid that did everything wrong. No like. When I want to, I want to like backtrack a little bit to when I asked you that question about being 14 and making a decision because whoever's listening to this podcast and if you're like in a situation where you're not in a good situation, I was asking Kayleen specifically because I wanted her answer and for what we're sharing, I wanted her answer and that because each situation looks different.

31:48 So with everything that Kayleen shared, that's her answer. And it actually gives expression to situations at that, if that makes any sense to whoever's listening. Kayleen, is it making sense to you how I'm ordering it? Yeah, it's yeah, OK. Because that obviously we could be in a room full of 20 people, 20 different experiences and ask one question, even if it's are the fries that In-n-out crispy and 10 people could say no and 10 people could say yes. Because everyone has their own experience and different opinions, perspective.

32:21 So I was asking that right towards like our situation. But whoever's listening, like I said, every situation looks different. So that answer could vary. I just wanted to be clear on that because that was a very intense question. I feel like that could have been taken multiple different ways. So I just wanted to clarify that this is targeted towards our situation.

32:42 Kaylene, you definitely shared like a lot which it's all been super good. And I honestly, I got some perspective of situations that we've talked about, I mean, so much. And I still like even every day when we talk, I just feel like it's like I'm walking through this field and oh, there's a dandelion. Oh, there's a flower. Oh, there's a tree. Like there's just so many things looking back on. Because I feel like if we would have been doing, trying to have these conversations when we were younger, Oh my gosh, we would not see eye to eye.

33:16 We would have, we were in two total different perspectives, you know, so it's. Just so powerful. To like look back and be able to realize what was happening and why because reactions when you get older and you start working on healing and stuff, you, you learn as kids, you don't have those tools. Well, we didn't. Some kids might have the advantage of like therapy and stuff like that, but it still can be hard to navigate because you're a kid. So when I'm saying that too, if you have an opportunity to do therapy as a kid, I say do it.

33:52 You can build tools younger and it's going to help you in the long run, even no matter what you're dealing with. That's my personal opinion. And therapy can look like many different things. I'm not pushing therapy on anybody by any means, but it can look like many different things. Doing something you love, Drawing, singing. Playing for. Yeah, meditation or medication. Meditation. I thought you said meditation. No, no.

34:24 But yeah, killing with the whole thing with the police, I was like sitting there thinking why you were showing that, because that was, you got to think I was in that household. So when all this stuff is happening, there are certain things when you're in a very, how can I word it controlled environment? Strict is a word, but also controlled is a very like. I think it can take take it on a deeper level. Yeah, first I was. Scared, OK, like all this stuff is happening. I'm at a point in my life where I'm just like scared of everything and anything.

35:05 I mean, you know, you just don't know what's going to happen next. I felt like a ninja like. So I was like, and when that was happening, I was just so happy you were back. I mean, now I'm, I don't have that choice. Like because at that point I didn't want to go to the other household, but I'm thinking this one's good. And then now I have this whole whirlwind of stuff. That's you know, it. It was there wasn't a win win situation in it that and that's why I say. It was vice versa, Like I wanted to stay at the other household and didn't want to go there.

35:37 And so like, it was just, yeah. And then it completed us so much because for a long time you're hearing you're living one life, I'm living the other. It's like if you go to have tacos with someone and you both like different cheese, it takes a while for you guys to see eye to eye. Oh, OK, maybe I'll try yours. Like I feel like it took us a really long time to get where we're at because you both of our perspectives were so strong. But at the same time, now that we've come together, we're taking both of our perspectives and be like, OK, well, whole building, everything turned to ashes.

36:12 Everything turned to ashes. And that is why our podcast is called Ashes Became Altars because I really feel like our life became ashes. And at such a young age, we both ended up in a homeless situation with nobody to call, with no help, no family, really all of these things. We both had that place at some point where it was like, I am the only person I got. It's a sad. Place. Yeah, but we did the work on it and that's why. Yeah, we did. I think with the whole, everything that you shared, I, I can't explain what I was feeling as you were sharing because it's so it's just so powerful and insightful to hear how you felt in certain situations and like what you were dealing with.

37:05 Because in situations we're, so I don't want to word it like that because it just sounds so harsh, but we're selfish. You know, when you're dealing with something, we only think about our own feelings. But in reality, we're not the only ones in the situation. There's when you have an argument with somebody, there's two people in the situation. It's not just you that's feeling something. The other person is too. So when we were younger, I think it was easier for me to mind you, Keelene, I want to be clear and whoever is listening like this could go into perspective for whatever you're dealing with.

37:39 I feel like I had so much going on in the house that I was living in and so much I was carrying that when you finally came back and then we're gone and you know, you had your own thing going on. I feel like it made me like have so much bitterness. I think because for one, I and we've talked about this. So whoever's listening, me and killing have talked about this. I felt, you know, bitter towards Kaylene because I wanted her there and me and killing have talked about and we've gone pretty deep about how we wish we could have been there for each other, but there was just no way that we possibly could have even if we wanted to.

38:18 Like there was so much happening and in the stricter household and controlled environment, when somebody has control over you, I can't explain. You know, I hear people in so many situations and typically it's to do with spouses. The majority of stories that I've heard, obviously it happens in other circumstances. Mine happened with parents and when people are sharing like this intense manipulation, how hard it was to get away from and all these things, there's people that are, well, why don't you just leave?

38:55 And when it came to a parent situation specifically, and I'm not pointing any parent out. This is not I'm just speaking. I don't know how to say this without pointing a parent out. Like I feel like I don't know if that. I know it's so hard. It's. Really hard. It is so hard. That's what I kept doing whenever I was trying to explain it. That's why I was just sitting there 'cause I'm like, I don't know how to help you, brother.

39:25 But with that dynamic of family, I guess I'll word it like that. That dynamic it is. So when you have this connection and bond, mine looked like the dynamic of family. It is so hard to get away from. I can't explain it the way that I have explained it. To put it into perspective. It's and I when I tried starting a podcast before I actually shared this on it, I thought, I don't know what I was thinking trying to start that. I was like in my living room. I had my phone on a trash can on top of a fan.

39:59 I was like wow this can do big things but how I. Have learned to share it is when you're dealing with somebody to that intensity, whether it is a parent, spouse or a friend, whatever it may look like. It's like a when you go fishing and you're throwing the bait into the water and the fish hooks it. The fish bites the hook and you reel it in and then you know the fish is hurt, The fish is in pain. Then you take the fish off and you throw it back in the water and then he swims down. He thinks he's free.

40:35 And then you throw the hook back in with the bait on it again. And then the fish sees the bait and it this time, you know, swimming up and then boom, hook in his mouth again. And it's the same process over and over and over again. And before the fish knows. It and then you can only go back up. Yeah, yeah, Before the fish knows it, now he's hooked, hooked, and now he's not getting out again because he kept going for the bait. That's the only way I know how to explain manipulation and a controlled relationship as well.

41:06 It is like that fish. Because then you think it's good, you know, and that that is exactly what a controlled, like, abusive relationship is. People, that was a great way of explaining that. People stay because not all things are bad and not all things are all good. That's just the bottom line. It's life. There's no all good, there's no all bad. There's both. Whatever you feed and whatever you strive for, that's what's going to be your outcome. If you're waking up every day and you're like, today's going to be a bad day.

41:35 It's going to suck. You're going to get stuck in traffic. Kayleen, I got stuck, stuck in traffic earlier.

41:44 You're like going to go into traffic and be stuck in it and you're going to be mad rather than be able to sit back and be, oh, am I stuck in traffic? Did somebody get in a car accident? I'm sitting here mad because I'm stuck in traffic, but maybe somebody did get in a car accident and you know, now their whole day is ruined or their life. You never know. So anyways, with I kind of got off track there for a second, but with that bait and everything like that, it's so good, right? They when the fish use the bait, it's you stay in situations because there is good as well.

42:15 Not only bad they're they can be humorous, but behind closed doors, their anger speaks to their fist. They can be the life of the party, but behind closed doors you fear your life. Just things like that. It's this whole thing that can go deep obviously, and into so many details or situations, whatever. It's because that bait on that hook, it seems good. The fish is going up, it seems good. And that's how manipulation is. It's this repetitive process and you don't even realize you're in it until you're hooked and you're going to buck it.

42:54 So some people never get that freedom away from the bait to be able to swim away and go down the sea. There's a lot of people that got to the bucket and they're stuck in it, you know? So that's the only way I can explain the intensity of like a like kind of what was a situation that was handed to us. So I know that was kind of like deep, but there's no way to explain things without explaining things, you know? So one household there was this immense, you know, and in the household that I chose to stay in, I learned a lot.

43:42 I will say I learned a lot. And now? That I'm older. Now that I'm older if I never moved and left the environment I think that I would have completely demolished which I did. I I had this like self sabotage type of personality or mindset I guess to where I would work 2 jobs, walk to work 2 hours walk home, go to my second job. I did high school on the laptop. I helped a friend take care of her kid, took him to school on my back. Went to work, same routine over and over again with no help from anybody.

44:23 Couldn't afford anything at a certain point. Had Christmas. I mean I'm 17 years old, have Christmas lights going through the hallway into my apartment that I'm late on rent, behind on rent. The landlords let me stay there without a lease trying to help me out. I'm $2000 behind on rent. Then I start drinking and smoking and sabotaging my life and it, you know, these people that helped me and that's someone I took advantage of. And I feel so bad about that because I just was not seen clearly. And I just went down a completely bad path there for a second.

44:56 And you know, honestly, shout out to that landlord because what what a good man and wife that that was, that there's this kid losing their mind that needed a home and they let stay there and. So was that the first place that you had stayed? I stayed with friends before that and then I got the apartment. OK, well, I I lived in with somebody. That you had on their. Own I moved in with somebody in that apartment and then, you know, it was yeah, OK, OK. So why was I sharing that?

45:43 Oh, so because wait, what? I don't remember. Because you were talking about whenever you had like left or moved out whenever you were 17. And then you were talking about that kind of just because leaving, leaving that manipulation cycle or leaving that, you know, like. Yeah, so I had this like, OK, so I had this like self sabotage thing. I would build my life. I would work, work, work. And then I would hit a point where I don't know. I don't know what it was. I didn't, I felt like I didn't deserve it.

46:23 I felt like I couldn't handle the pain from the past. I don't know exactly. It was just all of these things. Boom, I lose my apartment, boom, wreck a car. Boom, got a DUI, all of these things. And it's like when life was getting good, I also was still drinking guys, I had a complete alcohol problem. We're going to go into that later. But my point is with this whole situation with the strict household, it took an immense amount of like it took a heavy toll on me because when somebody. Is controlled on you.

46:59 When but when? But that was my reaction and my reaction. I mean, you were, yeah. Like it wasn't right and I hurt people along the way, but at the same time, people react and they react the best they can. But as you get older, obviously we're feeling, you know, do your best people don't, you know, no excuses as you get older. I'm just kidding. But life can be harder. And that's my point. I've made my fair share of mistakes and I didn't make the right decisions. And it did result in things that really messed up my life for a while and took me a long time,

47:39 Right. And so because in that strict household, I didn't just leave the house. OK, when you leave a situation like that, yes, you can leave. I still had ties because I had hope and I wanted family. So for me, it, I felt like it was a lot harder for me to completely let go. It took me until I moved across the country to be able to say I'm done. I'm not going to feel this way anymore and I'm not going to let you guys do this to me anymore. That's and not just certain people, just the whole dynamic.

48:13 I was just done. I was like, I'm either going to take, you know, I'm not going to be in this world anymore because of self sabotage with abuse of, you know, self medications per SE, or the what I was dealing with was so heavy that I couldn't deal with it. That's the point I hit. And in that stricter household, when somebody is, when somebody is controlling, there's a target, OK, you can control. You can't control. Let me say it like this. I've done a lot of leadership things. You can make rules, standards, regulations and be like, OK, 5:00 We're going to sit down at the table and everyone's going to be in a chair.

49:02 The majority of people will probably be there, but they're, you know, you're going to have those stranglers where they come in at five O 5, stuff like that. It's easier for someone you're, you know how they always say, oh, they're the favorite student because there's always like 1, Not always. I don't know how to say it. It's like when somebody is controlling someone, it's easier for them to control one thing than the whole dynamic of something. I feel like I messed up with my explanation there.

49:34 It is easier to control one thing when you have an immense amount of control over one thing. I feel like I, and also in that dynamic to the person being controlled, gives full control over your mentality. Everything. When your mentality is under submission of someone who is abusive, manipulative and control, it's your entire life. It it completely takes over. So I felt like I learned at a very young age what that was, what it looked like. Now, mind you, when I left that I had to unlearn a lot too because it was very confusing for me.

50:14 So Killeen, you were in a different environment. I was dealing with that and there was some, you know, there was a lot that happened within that. Obviously there was a lot that happened. It really, it really, really was hard for me, honestly, and that environment. So I feel like I also wasn't mind you guys, we made our mistakes, but I don't feel like we were absolute terrible kids. I think trying to process and navigate and figure out what the heck's going on. All of this stuff's happening all the time.

50:51 It's really hard. You don't have structure, you don't have a home, you don't have a base, you don't have anywhere to run to. You don't have anyone to run to. It's it's very hard. And when I was dealing with that environment, I guys, I'm going to be honest to whoever's listening. I'm going to get a little transparent. This episode's kind of taken a little bit of a turn, Kaylene. But when I got in that household, I got in a lot of trouble for my hands. I know this sounds absolutely insane, but I can't explain how much of A tool it took on me.

51:32 I wasn't allowed to sit across the table from a certain person or I would get screamed at. I'll never forget they got fries and I, I was sitting at the yeah, I was sitting at the coffee table and I was eating the fries. And I love ketchup. And one thing about me, I don't care if there's nothing else in my house, I will have a bottle of ketchup I was eating. Like I was like they suddenly used to eat ketchup off a spoon. I know when. You were a baby used to eat ketchup off a spoon. Sorry, but anyway.

52:02 Are you outing me right?

52:08 Now anyways, wait, where were you eating? I was eating at the dining room table like I literally remember the situation and I was dipping my fries in the ketchup and this person starts screaming at me. You eat 3 fries at an effing time. Are you like just going in on me about these fries? And it started, it just started turning into this thing where I didn't want tea in front of anyone. I was getting in trouble at the table. Like it got to a point where I would be told to go eat somewhere else because of my hands.

52:41 I know it sounds so insane and honestly like sometimes it doesn't hit me, but sometimes it does. It's like, wow, you know it. It took me a long time to be able to like eat in front of people. I know a lot of people. But that's like a controlling aspect. Yeah, and manipulation too. It's like I got, I was sitting at the dinner table one time and because every once in a while they did that at that house. And I remember the way that I don't know, I, I do things odd, I guess. I don't know. I'm, I'm different.

53:16 I'm different. I was holding the way I was holding my fork. I felt so much shame. I got in so much trouble for the way I held my fork all the time. You hold it like an effing shovel. Why can't you just hold it like a normal person? Like going ham on me. I'm like, I I would literally practice how to hold my fork and I just, I just didn't know how to do it right. I, he would edit that he, I didn't mean to say he, they would sit there and scream at me about this. And I, I think I had so much anxiety that when I was trying to even hold it right, I couldn't figure out how to hold it right.

53:57 And guys, I was like, I mean, I was like 1617, you know, from young from when that household got custody. I mean, this, this was like an ongoing thing for a long time. And it really like over time, if someone says something to you one time, you think about it, you're like, oh, wow, is that like true? When someone's sitting there and saying something to you repeatedly for years, you start being like, Oh my gosh, like, wow, I don't know how to hold a Fort. And I'll never forget, you know, you think you leave an environment.

54:33 I, I was out of the household and I went to lunch with some friends and we all had gotten a table or whatever. I got a BLT and I was, I wanted to like eat in front of everybody and I picked up the sandwich and I don't know my like, I would really try to eat in front of people. Well, this time, so we're all sitting there and I pick up the sandwich and I got so much anxiety about my hands. I literally just dropped the BLT. It fell, some fell in my lap and I was like tearing up. I didn't want to look at anybody.

55:08 And one of my good friends was with me. I'm like, I just want to go home and like, I I can't do this. It's it was so intense for me. Not because just because of the dynamic of the situation with my hands, not because of the, you know, I felt like people were staring or anything like that. I was so ashamed of my hands. Not that people were looking. Oh, it's making me tear up because like, taking me back to like those moments. I'm like, Dang, man. I was like, that was a lot. Yeah, I just got. And, you know, I would get screamed at.

55:39 You have spider fingers. Why do your hands look like that? And it just, it sounds so little, but when it's this is like ongoing for so long and you get in so much trouble for it, it does give you a lot of shame. So I I just couldn't eat in front of anyone. I got to the point, Kayleen and whoever is listening, like if you go through something like this, just know there is an end to it. At a certain point you just have to make the decision. It's not going to be easy, obviously, but there it can come to an end it with a decision from you.

56:16 But Kayleen with saying that it it went into I couldn't even play games. Like I couldn't even play card games unless I had a couple of drinks because I was so like I would literally freak out about my hands. I couldn't grab the cards. So I would just shrug a couple of drinks before I would grab because the intensity of how and I never really thought about it until I just started sharing that it was shame about my hands. So I broke my wrist snowboarding, and this was also when I was out of the out of the household.

56:46 I tried I tried doing like a flip. I was with friends, whatever. It was a great time, but I broke my wrist and I had to have surgery on it and I got a plate and screws in there. Well, that was one thing right, You know, honestly great memory because it, you know, snowboarding, hello with friends, fun. But at the same time, when I had the surgery, I had a cast on and when I went and got everything taken off, I will never forget the day I looked down when they took the cast off and I looked down at my wrist and I started bawling and I was like my hands are so much Oh my gosh, this is making me throw up.

57:24 I, I looked, I was like looking down at my wrist and I was like, I, my hands are so much uglier now. Like, how am I going to be able to do anything? Like I already hate my hands and now I, you know, I have this like scar and everything. Like how am I supposed to try to get the courage to be able to pick up a fork and stuff like that? And it really, you know, I know it sounds so like insane, but if anyone that is listening has ever dealt with something, if you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

57:55 And that's totally OK. You can listen in. But I ended up sending a text and saying, listen, you like ruined my life with what you did about my hands. And I didn't get a response at the time. And I was like, you know, it's fine. I'm, I'm not trying to put blame. But in that moment when I had surgery and that happened, I was like, I, I think I was like maybe 2020 something or my early 20s. I'm in my early 20s at this point. And I'm like this thing that I've dealt with since I was younger, it's going to affect me for the rest of my life.

58:31 Like I'm never going to be able to like just be normal and play games, anything like that. And so before I moved to Arizona, I started spending time for many reasons, not just this. I would go to restaurants by myself. I wanted to get comfortable enough in my skin. This was before I even knew I was moving to Arizona. I wanted to be comfortable enough in my skin to be able to walk into a restaurant and sit down and eat. And so I would do that. There was this little like diner by the person I was living with by that house and I would go there on like weekend mornings and I would walk in and it would there would be a lot of people.

59:05 And I was like, I have to face this. And I would order a plate of food and I would sit there by myself at a table, even if there was 4 chairs and I'm like, I'm going to eat this plate of food. I'm hungry and I'm going to eat this plate of food. And then when I moved to Arizona at this also, I will never forget I met someone through a church. She was around my age and we went to this place called it was a restaurant, but I ordered a salad. I ate almost the whole salad sitting in front of her and when I left, like to her, we were just like hanging out.

59:39 When I left, I felt like I conquered the world. I was like I sat in my car and I was like I ate a salad in front of someone like I held my fork and I did it. But the guy guys, the point of like, I don't know why I shared that, but the point when someone has like the strict household, there was so much more than it being strict and Kelian sharing the freedom. There's a lot. The point of us sharing these things is because the intensity of the freedom, you see how that freedom went deeper, 6 feet deeper, how the strict it goes 6 feet deeper.

1:00:17 There's so much behind these things and you can just hear things. But when you're crossing paths with people, we can't just. Here, oh, you know that hurt or oh, I stubbed my toe. What if they stubbed their toe and they broke their toenail and you're thinking, get over it. You stubbed your toe and then you look down and their whole toes bruised you. You just don't know the intensity of what the pain and what people have been through and the point of the strict versus freedom. The whole thing of this was to explain the intensity of both sides and that there is understanding and anyone that is dealing with, even if it's one side, just the freedom or just the strict, you're not alone on my throat's freaking out.

1:01:04 But at the same time, there's other people that have gone through it and there is hope and there is at a certain point a way out. You may not see it now. You may be stuck like we were because we were kids. We didn't get to make a decision and stuff like that. How people kept getting custody and blah blah blah, I have no idea. Genuinely no freaking clue. But we kind of went a little long with this one, so. Really quick, I did just want to say like I can fully admit that there's not been one time that you were sitting next to me in front of me at all.

1:01:42 Ever eaten in front of me and I never once ever noticed. Like I that made me sad, but I never noticed your hands at all. Like I'm so serious, like I, I think you are so beautiful 90% of the time. Like I, I just noticed like the great things about you, like you're just a lot of things. Like I don't want to like nitpick, but you know.

1:02:17 Just. Like, like your eyes, you have beautiful eyes and yeah, like honestly, I, I love your arms. I love, like, there's so much about you and I, I see you like sometimes. No, literally I'm not. I'm not just saying. That like you're such a beautiful because. I don't know. I love you so much and I appreciate you so much. I'm also like, I think looking back on it, I don't think I've talked like in depth like that about it for so long. You know, you can go around and share all day and like, Oh my gosh, I ate three fries like, but at the end of the day, it really impacted my life for a long time.

1:02:53 But sitting here talking about it and like talking with you and whoever's listening, I, that's not my life anymore, you know, like. Right. It's making me. Cry and you have. You have conquered it. I'm so happy for you. I really am. I that's the hard thing. And. Killing us. Too. And we were, we were just kids and so misunderstood. So I think that's why whoever's listening, I know we were kind of me and killing. We're more engaged with each other in this episode. It's just we were sharing and whoever's listening as you're listening, we get it.

1:03:33 Honestly, we get it and it's hard and it's not easy to navigate. And we are adults now, but we also remember how it felt as kids. So whether you're an adult trying to deal with things or a kid trying to deal with things, we we get all the angles of it. So we are going to wrap up this episode. Sorry to leave you guys on such like a sad no order some ice cream, watch a funny movie. Sorry to make you sad if we did. If you're not lactose intolerant like my hubby. Just kidding. Still eat it guys. If you're intolerant, do what you need to.

1:04:10 All righty bye then. I'll see you in the next fun y'all all. Right, bye.